| jonp
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| 203567. Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:54 pm |
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Thanks dr.bob; I like the 25 rupee banknote story.
Goes off to have a look |
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| markvent
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| 203572. Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:08 pm |
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| dr.bob wrote: | | markvent wrote: | | "Poney" meaning money, this seems to have come from the first two words of the fifth division of Psalm 119, "Legem Pone" |
That's one theory. There are many others mentioned on this website including:
* It is suggested that it derives from the typical price paid for a small horse, but in those times £25 would have been an unusually high price for a pony.
* an Indian twenty-five rupee banknote featured a pony.
* the Old German word 'poniren' meaning to pay
As with most things etymological, the truth is probably lost to the mists of time. However, I like the rupee of Old German explanations best. The "Legem Pone" explanation sounds far too convoluted.
Edit: in reply to jonp's question, the same site says the origins of the term "monkey" are unknown, but suggests a similar rupee explanation. |
I can find no instance of the 25 rupee note showing a pony, or the 500 rupee note showning a monkey plus both phrases have been around long before the Raj.
The phrase could possibly have been adopted into Cant from "poniren" but doesn't feel right to me. Why lose the -ren ?
I don't find the "Legem Pone" theory any more convoluted than the uttering of an Old German word or referring to bank notes not yet printed on another continent that don't show the pictures that are supposedly referred to ?
As for the it being the "price of a pony" ... £25 was a great deal of money and a £25 or 25 Guinea horse would have been inordinately expensive. That one sounds like a load of old pony to me ...
as regards my original post, and the use of "Legem Pone" to mean payment, if I may quote from Thomas Wright's "Dictionary of Obsolete & Provincial English" (1857)
| Quote: | "LEGEM PONE. An old popular term for ready money.
use legem pone to pay at they day,
but use not oremus for often delay.
Tusser,Husb.
but in this, here is nothing to bee
abated, all their speech is legem pone,
or else with their ill custome they will
detaine thee.
G. Minshul, Essayes in Prison."
and
"LEGGE. v. To lay; to lay a wager" |
now the quote from Thomas Tusser's "5 Points Of Good Husbandry" is interesting as it was published in 1557.
Now the same etymology of "Pony" is given in The Gentlemans Magazine of 1822. Admittedly none of this is proof of anything much more than that this etymology of "pony" has been used for a long time, however as you say these are theories and the mists of time have veiled the real origins but I find the "legem pone" theory more belivable than any other.
Mark.
_________________
"This QI'r is no more! He has ceased to be! 'e's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'e's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibuule!"
Last edited by markvent on Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| dr.bob
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| 203596. Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:24 pm |
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| markvent wrote: | | the 25 rupee note doesn't show, nor ever has shown a pony, just like the 500 rupee note doesn't show, nor ever has shown a monkey plus both phrases have been around long before Britains involvement with India. |
Of course, there's the possibility that it wasn't a note, but a coin. Coins generally have some kind of design on them, right? Given that the first Indian rupees were believed to have been produced in the 15th or 16th century, and British involvement with trade to India began in the 16th century, I think it'll be hard to disprove this link entirely. I certainly can't find any historical archive of rupee designs going back that far.
| markvent wrote: | | possibly adopted into the cant from poniren but doesn't feel right to me. Why lose the -ren ? |
Why not? Words often change by losing bits when transferring from one language to another, don't they?
| markvent wrote: | | as for the "legem pone" how exactly is it convoluted ? |
OK, I'll grant you that there's quite a lot of evidence pointing to the association of legem pone with getting paid on the 25th March. That seems a fairly strong explanation for the association of the word "pony" with money generally, or with the verb "pony" as in "to pony up."
I think it was the suggestion that March 25th lead to a pony being £25 that struck me as a bit convenient, though I could be wrong.
| markvent wrote: | | oh and as for the "price of a pony" ... what a load of old pony ... |
Yeah, have to agree with you there.
| markvent wrote: | | however as you say these are theories and the mists of time have veiled the real origins |
Indeed. By this stage, a lot of it is just guesswork
| markvent wrote: | | but I find the "legem pone" theory more belivable than any other. |
Fair enough. |
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| markvent
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| 203598. Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:35 pm |
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| dr.bob wrote: | | Of course, there's the possibility that it wasn't a note, but a coin. Coins generally have some kind of design on them, right? Given that the first Indian rupees were believed to have been produced in the 15th or 16th century, and British involvement with trade to India began in the 16th century, I think it'll be hard to disprove this link entirely. I certainly can't find any historical archive of rupee designs going back that far. |
No admittedly I dont have anything on that but I'll check with Numismatist friends :)
| dr_bob wrote: | | Why not? Words often change by losing bits when transferring from one language to another, don't they? |
True - but as I say this one doesnt feel right to me .. nothing more scientific than that I'm afraid...
| dr_bob wrote: | | I think it was the suggestion that March 25th lead to a pony being £25 that struck me as a bit convenient, though I could be wrong. |
Ah OK .. yes .. well as you'll see I've edited my post (mainly as it seemed to come across as quite aggressive/confrontational whcih wasn't my intent .. sorry to dr_bob if it came across that way! .. and also to add some sources for "legem pone" meaning payment.
| dr_bob wrote: | | markvent wrote: | | oh and as for the "price of a pony" ... what a load of old pony ... |
Yeah, have to agree with you there.. |
like saying "£1million" is called a "motor" because its the price of a car ;)
Mark.
_________________
"This QI'r is no more! He has ceased to be! 'e's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'e's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibuule!" |
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| dr.bob
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| 203600. Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:46 pm |
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| markvent wrote: | | (mainly as it seemed to come across as quite aggressive/confrontational whcih wasn't my intent .. sorry to dr_bob if it came across that way! |
No need to apologise. Not only did it not feel to me as though it was either aggressive or confrontational, I'm probably the last person you need to apologise to about being confrontational ;-) |
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| mckeonj
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| 203701. Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:27 pm |
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Another QI bit of slang or lingo is the nicknames associated with certain surnames:
- Pony Moore
- Nobby Clarke
- Pincher Martin*
are some I remember. They seem to have their origins in the Army and Navy, and to be almost invariable.
I suspect that they refer back to certain individuals in past history.
Any ideas?
*"Pincher Martin" is the title of a book by William Golding; it is the name of the central character, who is a sailor.
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John McKeon |
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| Jenny
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| 203881. Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:05 pm |
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| Mckeonj - there were also 'Dusty' Miller and 'Chalky' White. My dad's surname was Brown, and he was always called 'Bruin' when he was in the army during WW2. |
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| mckeonj
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| 203897. Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:47 pm |
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| Jenny, you might like to know that the Royal Navy referred to the Army as 'Brown jobs' when carrying them on troopships. |
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| Jenny
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| 203953. Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:49 am |
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| Ha! I didn't know that :-) |
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| gerontius grumpus
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| 203999. Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:10 pm |
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I've never understood the meaning of the cockney "monkey, pony" etc, or even the sums of money they refer to.
I wrongly presumed that a monkey must be £1000, Monkey's hand - grand. Oh well, I never liked only fools and Horses all that much.
I too would be interested to know the meaning of the military nicknames Nobby Clark, Pincher Martin etc. |
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| samivel
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| 204006. Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:40 pm |
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Well, I always thought 'pincher' was just a general nickname for a sailor, and that Martin was the surname of the central character in Golding's Pincher Martin.
Regarding Nobby Clark(e), Wiki has a couple of possible explanations. |
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| markvent
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| 206302. Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:27 pm |
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Jessamy - a fop
Jasmine was originally known as Jessamy, and it was added to soaps and used to scent clothes, and those smelling of such were considered to be very soft, gentle, naive, etc.
It was used as far as I can tell much as "you big girls blouse", "fairy" etc are in more modern times.
I have no proof but could this be the source of "Jessy" as in "You Big Jessy" ?
Mark.
_________________
"This QI'r is no more! He has ceased to be! 'e's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'e's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibuule!" |
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| Mr Grue
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| 241183. Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:38 pm |
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| markvent wrote: | Well how about this for a shudder ... in the 2007 adaption of St Trinian's Flash Harry will be played by Russell Brand.
noooooooooooooo don't let them do it !!
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Actually, judging by the trailer, he's not too bad.
And Stephen Fry puts in an appearance too. |
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| Mr Grue
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| 242390. Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:33 pm |
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| markvent wrote: | | "He takes a card and shades one-half of it in dark, so he can demonstrate to you just what he means. He says, 'There's wrong and there's right, there's black and there's white, and there is nothing, nothing in-between.' That's what Mr. A says." |
Prize for the obscure signature, btw! |
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| markvent
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| 249748. Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:25 pm |
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| markvent wrote: | I've been reading up on my Flash Lingo...
Flash - expensive, showy
Flash Gent - showing off his wealth, and by inference is a criminal.
Flash Lingo - Cant (criminal slang)
| Quote: | | Rum Bubbers - "a dexterous fellow at stealing silver tankards from inns and taverns." |
| Quote: | | Groaners - "fellows who go around with street preachers, who, while the mock parson is preaching, they pick the pockets of the listeners" |
| Quote: | | Duffers - "cheats who ply in different parts of London and pretend to deal in smuggled goods and sell goods at double their price." |
| Quote: | | Lully Priggers - "thieves who decoy children to some secluded place and rob them of their clothes or steal clothes hung out to dry." |
| Quote: | | Starrers - "theives who smash shop windows and steal items from within." |
| Quote: | | Mounters - "a hawker of quack medicines who attracts customers with stories, jokes, or tricks" |
| Quote: | | Cloak Twitchers - "rogues who lurk about the entrances into dark alleys, and bye-lanes, to snatch cloaks from the shoulders of passers-by" |
| Quote: | | Money Droppers - "cheats who drop money, which they pretend to find just before some country lad; and by way of giving him a share of their good luck, entice him into a public house, where they and their confederates cheat or rob him of what money he has about him" |
| Quote: | | Rushers - "thieves who knock at the doors of great houses in London, in summer time, when the families are gone out of town, and on the door being opened by a woman, rush in and rob the house" |
| Quote: | | Fawney Coves - "a fellow who drops a brass ring, double gilt, which he picks up before the party meant to be cheated, and to whom he disposes of it for less than its supposed, and ten times more than its real, value" |
| Quote: | | Adam Iglers - "a pickpocket’s associate, who receives the stolen goods, and runs off with them." |
| Quote: | | Buffers - "one that steals and kills horses and dogs for their skins" |
| Quote: | | Dragsmen - "one who cuts the luggage straps on carriages (drags) and steals the trunks" |
Mark. |
Lovely to see this in the QI Annual :)
Mark.
_________________
"This QI'r is no more! He has ceased to be! 'e's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'e's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibuule!" |
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