Minus v Negative

ptolmey · 115625. Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:47 am

I thought I had to mention Mr Fry's outrageous use of the word minus when he ought to say negative, when reporting the scores at the end of each show. Minus is a synonym of subtract, while negative is a prefix given to differentiate numbers less than 0 from their positive counterparts; those sharing the same absolute value. -1 therefore is negative 1, which is the number found by the operation 0-1, which is zero minus one.

It's not often one can find fault with the venerable Mr Fry, but I do think someone ought to slap his wrists.
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Alec

Ubergrooven · 115629. Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:53 am

It could be he thinks we know it's actually "Zero minus x points," and we're supposed to assume the "zero" is silent. I mean he is infallible, right? It must be that we're the ones doing something wrong, and not him.

ptolmey · 115634. Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:59 am

Hmm, a score is definitely a number, not an operation! You wouldn't catch him saying less when he meant fewer, it's the same category of mistake, not differentiating between two different (albeit linked) mathematical concepts.

But then, I agree he's infallible... Maybe somebody's putting something in his tea?

smiley_face · 115653. Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:43 am

Hmmm, but we would say that someone is on plus 4 points, rather than on positive 4 points.

We say minus, because "-" is read out as minus in, for instance, "4-1=3", and so when we see it in the context of "-3", we also say it as "minus", rather than negative.

It might not strictly be correct, but it's sortof become a part of our language. There's many instances of correct grammar rules not being obeyed, they've just become accepted though.

Lumpo31 · 115657. Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:51 am

barbados · 115660. Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:06 am

Yes it was very cold last night.
The weathermen said it would get down as far as negative 5 at one point

ptolmey · 116038. Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:53 pm

I'm not really with you Smiley, I'm afraid. If someone is on 4 points we say "four points". We only use negative because it is required to differentiate numbers <0 from those >0 with the same magnitude.

I take your point that there are many people using "minus" as a synonym for "negative", but I'm fairly sure that like me, I'm convinced Mr Fry would not be too happy with that justification. I go back to my point about "less" and "few".

Many people now use "less" when they should use "few"; "Less people now understand the difference between 'less' and 'few'." However, it's ugly to use that formulation because the two words refer to two distinct concepts: "few" for discrete numerical information, "less" for continuous or qualitative (non-discrete) information.

Similarly, there is a difference between a subtraction and a negative number. They are related, but not the same. One is an operation on two numbers (that equates to a number which could be positive, negative or 0), the other is itself a number.

We shouldn't conflate the ideas of operation and number simply because the symbols we use are the same. The exclamation mark has two uses, but we don't conflate them! (I wouldn't have read that "we don't conflate them factorial", for instance.)

I may well have broken rules of grammar in this post, and if I have done so, I feel suitably ashamed. Grammar is good because it organises our thoughts and gives them the possibility of precision. Let's not throw grammar out on the basis that lots of people don't use it correctly, that will only serve to add to the imprecision in communication.

did you know.... · 116489. Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:46 pm

ptolmey · 116497. Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:53 pm

I think Ubergrooven was trying to say that when Mr Fry says "minus five" he's saying "zero minus five" but missing out the zero (for kicks, perhaps).

Then if someone got five points he would say "five", meaning "zero plus five", playing even more fast and loose with his words and missing out the "zero plus".

But then the scores would be operations rather than numbers, which would be a bit odd. Personally I think they should adopt a Communist form of scoring where everyone starts on 0 and their score is multiplied by a chosen amount each time they get something right! That'd be marvellous.

Tas · 116502. Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:56 pm

I think there is an apostrophe in front of it.

'minus five.

That's what you do when something is missed out to make a phrase smaller, isn't it?

Like saying "Goodnight", to someone, but you end up saying " 'night".

:-)

Tas

smiley_face · 116505. Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:05 pm

Why does it say "10 items or less" at the checkout in every single supermarket in the country?! It's wrong! Plain wrong!

Mr Grue · 116506. Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:06 pm

10 items or fewer?

smiley_face · 116507. Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:08 pm

To be fair, although it probably should, technically, be "negative five points", like so many other examples* in language, the grammar has mutated over the years.

*I'll give you some examples once I've finished reading the "Mother Tongue" by Bill Bryson.

did you know.... · 116522. Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:39 pm

ptolmey · 116541. Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:15 pm

Exactly! That's why it's Communist - a perfect redistribution of scoring. However much you score, you all end up the same :-)

We need to salute Waitrose who definitely have a sign for "X items or fewer" (where X is a number that I've forgotten), but all the rest I know of do say "less".

smiley, I just don't agree that it's ok because it's become 'the norm'. The point is that they are different concepts and so should have different words to express them. The more that we conflate concepts and ideas, the more stupid we become as a society.

Would you condone people saying "I should of done this"? That's a norm among the 'yoof' who like, say like, like, like everywhere! ur gotta be kiddin me? l8r! What do we condone?

I agree that words and language doesn't stay still, but if it moves in a regressive way that erodes culture and understanding, we should fight it. Change is not necessarily good.